18. Vote For Animals!

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HOST (Voicover): Hello and welcome back to the Animal Friendly podcast.

Today I’m talking to Reineke Hameleers, the CEO of Eurogroup for Animals – which is a pan-European organisation which advocates and campaigns for a society in which animals are valued and respected as sentient beings. The group is made up of 98 member organisations, each of which is dedicated to improving the lives of animals across a range of areas; groups such as Animal Equality, the ISPCA, Four Paws, Doctors Against Animal Experiments and Ethical Farming Ireland, to name just a few.  

Because their work covers so many different areas of concern we decided to pick out two topics to discuss: Lab Animals and Food System Transformation; areas which have the potential to impact millions of animal lives.

Then at the end we talk about their exciting new campaign – Vote for Animals.

The European Elections are coming up – this happens every five years – and Eurogroup for Animals are asking potential candidates to sign a pledge that proves their commitment to protecting Europe’s animals; whether those animals are in farms, being used in science, being used for clothing or fashion, domestic animals or wildlife. 

So, before we start I’ll just explain two things that will make it easier to understand our conversation.

So you’ll hear us talk about the European Commission (or EC) and this is the executive arm of the European Union.  That means the European Commission is responsible for proposing new laws, managing policies and allocating funding and also enforcing EU law. So, a very important branch of the EU. 

The other phrase that you’ll hear us use is something called a European Citizen’s Initiative (an ECI). This is a unique way for citizens to help to shape the EU by calling on the European Commission, just mentioned, to propose new law. An ECI needs at least 1 million verified signatures in order to come before the Commission, at which point they decide on what action to take.

I really enjoyed talking to Reineke and learning more about their activities and efforts to make sure that no animal is left behind.

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HOST: Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me. I’m really delighted. Eurogroup for Animals is one of my favourite groups, I get your email all the time and I love it so...I think you guys do great work.

REINEKE: Thank you for inviting me.

HOST: Absolutely. When I actually went to make a list of questions I was going oh, you could talk for 10 hours about everything that you do.

REINEKE: And I need to keep it very basic and understandable because I'm working in this bureaucratic environment so we use a lot of abbreviations and, very technical things are extremely normal to me, so please stop me, ask me if I say things you don't understand, or you feel the listeners will never get this.

HOST: I was thinking that. I said, that's my job, is to say, what? What does that mean? I don't know [laughing]. I guess the best thing is to start and to say, what is Eurogroup for Animals and what is your aim?

REINEKE: Eurogroup for Animals is the European organisation that brings together almost 100 animal protection organisations in Europe and beyond, with the aim to work towards a Europe that truly values and cares for animals as sentient beings. So we have been founded in 1980 with the aim to really bring together - at the time of course there were a lot less organisations - but to bring together the animal protection movement and to work towards much better legislation and enforcement on animal welfare. And that has been a long journey of 44 years which saw some successes but also many challenges.

HOST: Ya. I think one of the things I like about the group is that it's law and it's legislation and that's important. You know, many people think of animal welfare and they're doing vigils and whatever, which is all important, but at the end of the day, law is what will change things and affect the lives of animals so...

REINEKE: Absolutely. That's also why I decided to take on this job as the CEO of Eurogroup for Animals. Before I was leading groups in the Netherlands, working on the ground, helping, rescuing animals - also working on raising standards in animal farming - but of course it was very different. But then I realised, also after having read books from Peter Singer for example, that if you really want to make a big impact for the animals who suffer the most - and for me those are the farm animals and the animals in the laboratories, but also the exotic animals being traded - you have to be in Brussels, you have to work at EU level and to really change policies. And that is not easy for animal activists because you need to be very patient and think long term. But in the end, that's how we change societies, by better policies and then making sure that those policies are enforced.

HOST: I really agree with that. So that's why I really wanted to talk to you guys, because there's so much; this is how you make change, you change society. Ah, that actually does lead us on to...so you're asking the European Commission now to publish revised animal welfare legislation. So, how did this come about? Was it an ECI?

REINEKE: Well, yes, also, but it's a long story, I will try to summarise it. But maybe listeners know that the European Union has recognised animals as sentient beings in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and this is the highest legislation we have in the EU. And this was of course a major step that the EU embraced the principle of animals being sentient. And then also saying that whilst formulating policies - at EU level but also at member state level - we should pay regard to the welfare of animals. And so it was linking that recognition to also then making the connection with the protection of animals in policies.

However, according to EU law, animals are only described as products, commodities or goods. So this principle of sentience, and really also reflecting what they need in terms of their welfare, has not been incorporated into actual legislation. On top of that, over those past 44 years - that Eurogroup for Animals has been active - the EU did adopt some important legislation, for example, the protection of chickens, both laying hens but also broilers - meat chickens. I don't like that word broilers so prefer to talk about meat chickens. And also for the protection of calves, for the protection of pigs, but those laws are ancient. They are more than 10, 20 years old. And science is saying very different things in terms of the animals' needs. So those laws are heavily outdated. So that's why we have been pushing for this very overdue revision. And then I should also say that lots of farm animal species are not protected by any legislation at the moment, for example, dairy cows or fish, rabbits, quails, geese, ducks...so there was a real, real need for the EU to do it. But sadly it hasn't happened.

HOST: So, there is revised animal welfare legislation but it isn't going through or it's being held up?

REINEKE: Well, the story is...so we have this outdated legislation and the Commission says, 4 years ago, at the beginning of the new political term, because this goes in a 5 years cycle...So they said we are going to revise the animal welfare legislation. So we were of course over the moon that this was finally happening. And then, the year after, a very important European Citizen's Initiative was completed, it was called End the Cage Age, and it managed to collect more than the required number of validated signatures. It was one of the ten successful European Citizen's Initiatives. And then the commission said in its response to this ECI, yes, we will do this. We will phase out the cages in animal farming by 2027. So the two together, this commitment on revision of the entire animal welfare legislation package but then also saying we will phase out the cages, you know, gave us lots of confidence, that this would indeed happen.

But a lot happened in the meantime, mainly in the political environment I should say, there was a lot of pressure on the commission also from the agriculture sector...so last December they only published a new proposal on protection of animals during transport - live transport - which is an extremely poor proposal. And then secondly they have published a rather unexpected legislative proposal for the protection of cats and dogs. And of course this is welcome, we also care for cats and dogs, and we will now make sure that it's also really good, but the big change has yet to happen. And the Commission is saying now, we are still working on it, we need more time to make all the calculations because of course this is going to cost and they will also need to look at transition times for farmers - fair enough - but it's very disappointing and citizens are also extremely disappointed that they haven't followed through on their commitments. Especially because we haven't only seen one successful ECI - European Citizen's Initiative - but two. Because last year another ECI was completed, and listeners may think, oh, this is an easy thing, an ECI. It's totally not! So, out of the hundred attempts only ten made it, and six of those successful ECIs were related to animals. So last year saw another one relevant for the revision of the legislation that was calling for Fur Free Europe, so a ban on fur farming and also a ban on the imports of fur products from outside the EU. So there was another impetus for the Commission to say, we are going to do this now. But, as I said, the pressure on them to not do it was stronger, and this was mainly coming from the agro industry.

HOST (Voiceover): I just want to highlight what Reineke said there about the ECIs. That there are over 100 ECIs currently registered but only 10 of these have been successful so far in getting the required 1 million signatures. Of these 10, 6 of them had to do with animals.  ECIs like End the Cage Age, Fur Free Europe, Save Bees and Farmers, Stop Finning, Stop Vivisection and Save Cruelty Free Cosmetics.

So I think we can see that there’s a real uprising of support for animal issues and animal welfare within Europe. And I think many people – including myself once upon a time – assume that once the ECI is successfully completed and presented to the European Commission, that’s it, the job is done and the wish of the citizens will be respected.

But of course that’s only the first step.

HOST: I know what you were saying about the gathering, you have to get over one million signatures and I just remember how it took a long time and it was just a magnificent effort from everybody together so it is disappointing then when you're stuck...

REINEKE: Oh yah. It's undermining the democratic nature of the European Citizen's Initiative. Which was introduced to bring citizens closer to the EU, and now so, on the End the Cage Age, they are not delivering on what they promised, so that's also why the Citizen's Committee of the End the Cage Age ECI has now launched a court case and also more than 30 organisations sent a complaint to the EU Ombudsman, because this is just unheard. And then on the other ECI, so, Fur Free Europe, the Commission hasn't closed the door but has now kicked the can down the road and asked the European Food and Safety Authority - so the big scientific advisory institute of the commission - to first express an opinion - don't laugh - about the welfare of fur animals is compromised in fur farming. Well, we trust the answer will be crystal clear. You cannot guarantee welfare on fur farms. So that should then prompt the next Commission to introduce a ban on fur farming in the, hopefully, revised animal welfare legislation. Because it was supposed to be all part of this same package.

HOST: Okay, so, as I've said you've so many areas of work, we've picked out two, so Lab Animals, so Animals in Laboratories. So I was quite surprised to...well, I wasn't surprised to see that many people want to see an end to animal testing and animals used in science but the EU legislation is moving very slowly on this, or there seems to be roadblocks. So can you tell us a bit about that, why we aren't moving towards animal-free science as fast as we could be?

REINEKE: Yes, that's a very good question and a very timely one too. Because in the...we have this legislation on the protection of animals in scientific procedures and listeners may know that animals are used for basic research - so biomedical research, that's the bulk of the experiments that are ongoing. For regulatory purposes; so for the testing of medicines but also of substances used for chemical products for example; and then thirdly for education. So, roughly. I won't bore you with the complicated layers [laughing] within these domains. But roughly in these three domains. And each domain has of course its very own challenges in terms of how fast it can accelerate towards animal-free science. Now we have this animal experimentation legislation for the protection of animals during scientific procedures and that legislation says that using an animal should always be a last resort. And that in the end, you know, we should aim towards phasing out the use of animals in science. So that's quite a bold objective, right? Nevertheless, the numbers are not going down, and that is of course very concerning. And now there are scientists who are saying, yeah, but numbers are not the only indicator of progress, which may be true, but still, all these animals are undergoing, you know, tests and procedures and are causing harm.

So we do see progress but at the same time, real progress is still lacking. And this is also why there was another very successful European Citizen's Initiative in this area - it was called Cruelty Free Cosmetics and the name of this ECI may be a bit misleading because it was not only about cosmetics and the fact that there are still loopholes within the ban on the use of animals for cosmetic purposes. But this ECI was also calling for a roadmap to phase out the use of animals for chemicals purposes. You can imagine that these tests are extremely, extremely cruel. And then also to come forward with a roadmap to phase out the use of animals for basic research purposes. So, biomedical purposes. And I must say that the response from the Commission, although we were not entirely happy, but did include some promising elements.

So what is happening now is that the European Commission is working on the roadmap to indeed look at how can we transition towards a non-animal science for chemicals purposes. Because the European Commission is now also considering new legislation to better protect the environment and humans from chemicals which could theoretically mean a lot more animal tests and we need to avoid that from happening so that's why this roadmap is very important. And that process has started now. So that's promising. And then on the third objective of this ECI, so the phase-out of animals for other purposes. So biomedical purposes but also education, there's now a member-state led initiative really looking into this and trying to get all the European Union member states together on moving in that direction. It's called an ERA action - European Research Area action - and this is also looking very promising. It hasn't been decided yet but yeah, we really believe that it should. It should happen. So the legislation is sort of helping, but not helping entirely and it won't also be revised any time soon. But we have now these other initiatives which can really help us to accelerate the transition towards animal-free science.

HOST: And I think it's frustrating for a lot of people as well because the results from animal testing are not, they're not very efficient at all. Even testing on primates or whatever, it doesn't help with human medicine, it's not delivering the results. So I think I understand why so many people are saying why are we still doing this, it's not...

REINEKE: No, and consumers are also very far from, you know, what's really happening, and I think it would also be very good to have this discussion about the limitations of using animals. Not only for medicines, for the safety of certain products, but also when it comes to finding out information about diseases. We have been using animals now for centuries and we haven't come to clear answers. So that really shows that the animal model is not reliable and humans are not in, my case, 60 kilo mice. It's no rocket science, this, but still the scientific community, or part of it, are heavily relying on animal models - as they are being called - and the same scientific community also needs to be supported now to move away from that model. Because it's not only… it's not always easy also for scientists to do this because there are no subsidies or the regulatory requirements do not facilitate the use of it. So, yeah, we also believe that the EU should really facilitate that process and that has not yet happened in a very focused and strategic way. Yes, funding has increased and we also know that there are a lot more NAMs - as we call them - New Advanced Methodologies, if I remember well…

HOST (Voiceover): she means New Approach Methodologies

REINEKE: …that do not rely on animals. For example using tissues, also called organ on a chip, for example. Using computer simulations. Using human data. So, data generated also from, just human medical databases. So this is really expanding but nevertheless still a lot of animals are being used.

HOST: Ya, it is. I was interested to read that, that there's more money going into the old model which is there and which we are all used to and if the money shifted over to the new NAM as you call them, then science can use that. I saw, I think it was a TED talk, and the woman was saying we now know how to cure Alzheimer’s in mice. [Reineke laughing, yes, that’s a good one]. After decades of studying mice we can cure them of Alzheimer’s. Not humans! But, I just thought that was brilliant. I was saying, wow, okay, good work.

REINEKE: And I think, you know, we should also accept that we may not be able to cure all diseases and we may not be able ensure 100% safety and efficacy of products. And that's, yeah, life is also bringing certain risks and uncertainties we have to accept and live with. And think also as well about prevention. I think, we should also really reflect on how we can work towards less diseases from other perspectives for example. And not only look at the last resort of therapies. And that reflects holistic policy making. Which is still not so common but something we also really want to stimulate now with this thinking about the transition. It shouldn't just be narrow and focused on, okay, how can we replace animal tests? It should be much bigger thinking about, you know, how can we advance medicine? How can we advance science? It's all about better science. And that makes it also really, really fascinating, this process.

HOST: That's an absolutely wonderful segue into the next section, which is about Food System Transformation. So I was so interested to read this. Yeah, so how Eurogroup for Animals supports Food System Transformation. So could you tell us what that actually means and how you kind of put your support behind it.

REINEKE: Ya, it's interesting that we are talking more and more about transformations, about transitions. And in fact, you know, there's a whole scientific school on this. It's not that we in the animal advocacy movement have made it up. But you know, I found out that a lot of scientists have given this a lot of thought and have also studied how societies evolve and what is needed also to support such transitions, as they call it, at all the various levels. At Eurogroup for Animals of course we are mainly looking at the governance levels, at how governments and other policy makers can really stimulate such transitions and support such transitions. But coming to the food systems transformation, this is all about moving towards a much more sustainable food system. Because the current system is based on intensive, industrial farming which is not only very bad for animals but also very bad for the planet, for the environment, for the climate, for biodiversity, for water, for air, for humans. I mean, yeah, you know, people who live close to intensive farms, they know it, those are very unhealthy places for everyone really.

And of course this model still, you know, it goes back to the previous century after the war where there was a lot of food shortage and we wanted to secure, you know, that we had enough food but the days are very different. We have a growing world population of course, so food is still very important, but producing more and more animal products is not the solution. Quite the opposite. It's going to ruin the planet, and we don't have much time left, because we already know that we are hitting the climate's boundaries very soon and that we will exceed our footprint. We are already exceeding and we will do that even more if we continue this way. But of course this is a very controversial topic, which is also a bit weird, because the answers are so clear and also so positive. So how we are working on Food System Transformation is first and foremost to really take the animals out of the machines. You know, clearly animals can't be sentient within current intensive farming practices - and when I talk about intensive, I really mean the systems where they are indoors, where they don't have a lot of space, where they are really sort of pushed to their limits in terms of their bodies. You know, certain breeds are being used mainly in poultry production, very unnatural. They live very short also, because they are just being reared to produce as much meat in the shortest term possible, many still live in cages. So this system is just impossible for animals. And by taking the animals out of the machines and giving them more space, really making sure they can display their natural behaviours, we are also changing the entire system. Because you can't do that without also touching upon the number of animals being raised. So this is really important for us. Making sure that we move towards much more extensive small scale farming practice with high animal welfare at its core. But then of course we also need to consider how to feed that growing world population. And the beauty of improving animal welfare and doing that at the same time, that if you do that, if you move towards much better welfare standards, that means that you can also use all the crops that are now being fed to farm animals, to humans. Because it's extremely inefficient to feed animals with crops that can also be used for human consumption. And you can just, you know, feed animals from the land, and with other sort of recycled products. And then make sure that you use the crops for human consumption. And on top of that of course there are very promising developments on cultivated meat. That could also be a real game-changer. And we certainly support, also, that development.

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HOST (Voiceover): As Reineke said, it’s not just the animal advocacy movement who are pushing for a transition to plant-based eating. 

A first of its kind survey report was published recently (April 2024) by Harvard Law School – and this was a survey of more than 200 environmental and agricultural scientists who agreed that in order to limit the global temperature increase to 1.5 degrees Celsius, we must drastically reduce meat and dairy production, and fairly soon.

The lead author of the survey said “we need to see major changes in livestock production and consumption – really deep and rapid changes over the next decade.”

One of the survey respondents, Pete Smith, who is a climate scientist at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland and a renowned authority on the issue, said, quote, “It would be far better for the environment and animal welfare to transition to growing plant-based products that can be consumed directly by humans. I think that’s got to be the way forward. And that’s the one that will free up the most land that will allow us to create the carbon sinks that we need.” Unquote. 

Back to the conversation.

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HOST: So I read Eurogroup for Animals would like to see a reduction of meat, dairy, fish and egg production and consumption of 70% by 2030. So you're moving very much plant-based and then if there is animal within that it's less and higher welfare, less and better.

REINEKE: Exactly. Exactly. So this is of course quite ambitious. Our position is based on scientific references. We have really looked at official scientific institutes who have come up with guidance in terms of what the industry could still sort of produce to not exceed the planetary boundaries and then we come to this conclusion. And we also say, you know, we put animal welfare first so you can't use the argument, oh, then we will move to more chicken meat production. That's not a solution because you can't guarantee the welfare of all those chickens. Or we move to fish, aquaculture - you know that's now also a big trend. That's also not a solution because you have to feed all those fish and moreover you can never guarantee fish welfare. So we really believe that by making animal welfare at the core of the discussion about the food sustainability and the food system transformation that you can do a lot of different things.

HOST: I saw on the website, you're talking about food environments and there's something to download, which I really found interesting, showing about how supermarkets promote food, so it's kind of in legislation but it's also...it depends on the environment that people are in, what they eat.

REINEKE: Yes. A lot of focus is on production but clearly we can only also make this transition if we address the consumer side of things and at the moment consumers are not well informed and the healthy choice is more expensive and higher welfare products are also more expensive and we should reverse that. Now, it's more expensive to buy carrots than white bread. That’s a bit crazy. And then of course when I debate this with farmer's groups they say, yeah, but people can't afford to already pay for meat and chicken. So that's why we also say, yeah, but the good products should become less expensive, and at the same time you should make it more transparent also for consumers on what they are buying at the moment they really don't see the wood for the trees. It's also impossible to really know what you're buying now.

HOST: It is so difficult to try and...everything goes through so many...goes to different countries even to get packed and then brought back...

REINEKE: Oh yeah, and then you see only Non-EU on the package, if you were even looking. We shouldn't overestimate, also, the willingness from consumers to really...it's a small group of consumers that is really conscious so that's also why we should create those more favourable food environments, so it becomes very also very intuitive and obvious that these products are better, not only for you but also for animals and for the planet. And that's, I think, a great opportunity, and I also want to say that the entire value chain should play a role there, not only the farmers but also the middle-men; so also the retailers, the food outlets, the cooperatives. Everyone should take their responsibility and that's not always happening.

HOST: Do you see a shift towards plant-based? Do you see...I see it in some areas of my life, sometimes; and I hang around with a lot of vegans and we all think, oh, it's all happening and then I go to work and I'm talking to a lot of people who aren't vegan and there's nothing, there's no awareness of plant-based at all.

REINEKE: Oh no. Vegans are certainly not the norm. Well, the interesting thing is that it is increasing so the uptake of plant-based products is increasing but at the same time meat consumption is also increasing. We can be very idealistic and say, in the end, we want to see the world go vegan but after 11 years in Brussels I'm realistic enough to know that will not happen. And that's also why we believe that we should invest in innovations such as cultivated meat.

HOST: Ya, if you have a good enough replacement people will abandon meat on their own.

REINEKE: yes, absolutely.

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HOST (Voiceover): So, if you don’t know, cultivated meat is actual animal meat but it’s produced from cells that are taken from an animal and those cells are then used to grow meat in a factory setting. So much fewer animals are needed compared to the tens of billions of animals currently used in conventional animal agriculture. Much fewer animals means higher welfare and animals won’t need to be transported around the world as they currently are on extremely long journeys which are very stressful and do cause suffering.   

Production of cultivated meat opens up a huge range of possibilities for humane jobs – jobs which are making the world a better place and eliminating harm to animals and humans. Producing cultivated meat and other alternative proteins will need bioengineers, line workers, biotechnicians, product designers, flavour technicians, food safety regulators and many of the jobs that already exist in current food production.

We’ll still need all these professionals but they’ll be working within a food system that isn’t causing widespread harm to animals and the planet. 

As with any game-changing innovation, there is push-back. In November 2023 Italy announced a ban on the production, sale or import of cultivated meat – a ban which one campaigner described as “a deliberate attack on progress, preventing Italy from evolving despite the direction more and more European and non-European states are taking instead, with a significant push towards food transition.”

This is definitely an area to keep an eye on if you have any sort of interest in animal welfare.

Which brings us to our next segment, where Eurogroup for Animals are asking prospective MEPs to demonstrate their commitment to animal welfare by pledging support in 10 key areas, like: I pledge to accelerate the transition to non-animal science.

And, - I pledge to protect the welfare of aquatic species.

And… I pledge for a better deal for wild animals.

Well, I’ll let Reineke explain it in more detail…

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HOST: Okay, let’s move on to talk about the Vote For Animals campaign. Because I was very excited to see this. So would you like to tell us about the campaign. The elections are in June?

REINEKE: Yes, the first week of June. Of course, different days in different countries and this is a great opportunity for all those citizens who care about animals to make sure that they vote - that for starters - but then also to call on their candidates or the candidates you have in mind for the European Parliament to make a pledge for animals. Because we know that many of them are supportive. Many MEPs are supportive of animal welfare, but often animals are just forgotten. So we have to make sure that they are on top of the list of the future members of the European Parliament and that's what we aim to do through this campaign. So all of our members in those 26 countries, they are running the campaign, reaching out to candidate MEPs to take the pledge and we hope to see many actually doing that. It's an ambitious pledge, it really...I'm not sure if you've seen it but it includes many different… 10 specific asks. But it's all about, it's all sort of realistic asks they can still deliver within the next term.

HOST: Yes, that's quite good. I like it because there's broad and then there is specific, like for example, number 1 - I pledge to make the commission work harder for animals. That's quite a broad one and then you have for a ban on fur-farming and the placement so that goes quite specific. So they’re all…and nothing is terribly impossible or terribly narrow, and I love the idea of an EU Commissioner for Animal Welfare, it would be great if there was one commissioner that was in charge of all of that...

REINEKE: Yes, very important too. And there's more and more support for this. The European Parliament has really expressed its strong support and then this Commission said, oh, we are not sure, it's up to the next Commission. So it's really important timing, because if we have a Commissioner for Animal Welfare it's much clearer where the responsibility is. And it will also really address the strong European citizens' wish to see more attention going to this topic. And we have European Commissioners for very different topics, I mean even we have a Commissioner for the European Way of Living so I think we could have a Commissioner for Animal Welfare too.

HOST: Yes, it would make a lot of sense. And a lot of people have taken the pledge already. So a lot of people have expressed...have taken this pledge and said that they want to...

REINEKE: And it's only the beginning. So we are still some month away and most of our member organisations haven't even launched the campaign because the real sort of campaign only starts a couple of weeks before. So we expect to see good results. But of course it's important that we have these pledges from across the political spectrum and not just with certain political groups. Because that will make it very impactful in the next term, and we know that animal welfare is a non-partisan issue. So it should also be feasible to seek those pledges from all different parties.

HOST: And is it, can I just check with you...is it only politicians who can sign the pledge? [Reineke: yes, all candidates]. Candidates that's the word.

REINEKE: Yes, registered candidates. But citizens can call on their candidates. So they can see through a drop down menu, okay, these are the candidates in my country and then they can select the ones that they are interested in but I would say select all, and send them an email and asking them to sign the pledge. And then of course, so our member organisations in the countries will reach out to the candidates and will really motivate them to take the pledge.

HOST: It’s just a great, I mean, whoever came up with the idea or how you came up with the idea...I really like it because it's a way, it's not just citizens expressing their interest but asking their candidates to step up and say I will pledge my interest and then you can go back to them later and say, remember, what you said about that.

REINEKE: Yes, exactly, exactly. That's how democracy should work.

HOST: But for the candidates it's great as well, because if they have enough people saying this is what I'm interested in, they'll go, oh, okay, this is something that my constituents want.

REINEKE: Exactly, yeah.

HOST: So yes, I hope it goes really well.

REINEKE: Thank you, it's great that you are engaged too.

HOST: Yes, what can people do in general to kind of help Eurogroup for Animals or how can they get involved?

REINEKE: Well, they can always support our campaigns. They are always visible on our website but in general I would say if you really want to make a difference for animals, try to not only help animals on the ground but also think about how you can help with influencing your politicians. So, write to your politicians, really ask them to take action. And that may not always be very straightforward or easy but I think it's very important if we want to achieve that long-lasting change. So really think about how you can do more on political advocacy and if you're interested, by all means, contact us or see what organisation is in your direct environment that's a member of Eurogroup for Animals and try to also work with them. Because we need to have more political advocates. That's for sure.

HOST: And it does...it takes a bit of time but I do, I really do think you achieve a lot of that on your website is talk people through the steps. I mean I've signed a few things for European that I would never have thought - because you have to follow through a lot of hoops – but it's so satisfying when you find yourself part of a campaign. So...

REINEKE: Oh yeah, and there's still, you know, a distance between Brussels and what's happening in the countries and Eurogroup for Animals also really tries to bring those realities closer to each other and to really also explain why it's so important that we work in Brussels and work on policies and legislation and enforcement and explain in normal peoples' language why, you know? Yes, and that's also one of my personal missions, to really make sure that we close that enormous gap between the bureaucratic environment - which a lot of people have also maybe not so positive feelings - but in the end if we want to change it, and also if we want to make it more ethical, then we, as citizens, will have to do that.

HOST: For some people, politics, yes, it could be like they've been disappointed or something but for other people - and like me, many years ago - they're just afraid, because they don't understand. And it was actually, kind of, love for animals that drove me to start writing to politicians even though I was like, I don't know what I mean, and the more you do it, the more you realise, they want to hear from you. You know, you're a citizen, you have a right to express your opinion.

REINEKE: Yes, yes, and politicians also want to listen to citizens and now we have to make sure that those voices also count for animals.

HOST: I did want to ask, but I think you've kind of answered it in your attitude throughout...I was going to ask do you enjoy your work, or… there are good days and bad days?

REINEKE: Yes, for certain it's not easy but what really motivates me is to do this work with all those amazing animal advocates. So, working with those 98 organisations around me and also with a fantastic team around me is really keeping me going and also helping me to deal with all these setbacks. Because we are in the business of long-term change and resistance is just, almost normal. But still, I'm in it with my whole heart. So it's still difficult and challenging to see all that suffering on a daily basis. But being surrounded by so many like-minded people, yeah, that makes all the difference.

HOST: And it's not just groups in Europe. There's some groups around the world. I totally understand that, once you look and say, all these people are with me, it's fine, it's not just me.

REINEKE: No, no, no, absolutely, and our movement is also going from strength to strength, and that also gives me a lot of confidence, that in the end, we will get there. We should also see this really as longer term work and not make our own contribution too important, if that makes sense. So maybe I won't see the entire change but my little baby son will do. But it's still very important that we keep investing and that we don't become sort of cynical or bitter or give up. We cannot give up.

HOST: That's so true. Sometimes you think if you don't see the result… but it might be not in your lifetime… but work is still the important brick in the wall that keeps...

REINEKE: Exactly, that's how all movements, also on women's rights, against slavery, for black peoples' rights, have been going. It wasn't a matter of years, it was a matter of decades. Many decades. And the animal protection movement is still relatively young, also compared for example, to the environmental movement. We don't have such old roots. Yes, we know that the bigger organisations like the RSPCA in the UK, they go back years. I mean, they celebrate their 200th anniversary this year so...can you imagine? It’s still quite young and in terms of political impact that is...our movement hasn't worked on that for a long time.

HOST: There are so many determined people out there just working, it's so wonderful. That was just a wonderful chat and thank you so much for…

Reineke: Well, likewise.

HOST: …for agreeing, I was really delighted.

REINEKE: Very good, also, to have met you. Thank you so much, Samantha. We’ll stay in touch.

HOST: Okay, enjoy the rest of your day.

REINEKE: Yeah, you too.

HOST (Voiceover): I hope you enjoyed learning a bit about what goes on in the European Parliament and how legislation can have such an impact on the lives of animals, even though they don’t get to vote!  If you’d like to learn more, their website is Eurogroup for Animals.org and if you go to Areas of Concern you’ll see many of the things we talked about today as well as much more.

I know we have listeners all over the world – hi everyone – but if you are a European citizen I hope you’ll email your MEP candidates and ask them to pledge their support for animals. The link is in the show notes.

My deep thanks to Reineke and all the wonderful people at Eurogroup for Animals who are working so hard on all these important issues.

And thank you for listening. 

That’s it for now, see you next time!

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