31. NARA - A Bright Light for Animal Rights

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LAURA (Voiceover): So, we took the footage, we did the investigations, we put out some videos, we sent all the unedited original footage to the Department of Agriculture. They say they're conducting their own investigations, they're not really doing anything to be honest. But we've had a lot of interest in this and we've had surprisingly zero interaction from the Irish Farmers Association. And I was expecting there to be some opposition, I was expecting of them to try and sue us or something like that. I was expecting some radio debates and, you know, especially after our first investigation, we had a lot of radio coverage. One time in particular, a radio station had called me and said that the IFA were going to be on to debate with me and I was like, cool, let's go. And then when I went on the show, they said that they actually declined to join the debate and issued a statement instead. So, even the pig farmers themselves, even their reps and the Irish Farmers Association won't actually defend the footage we put out there. They don't know what to say to it.

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HOST (Voiceover): Hello and welcome back to the Animal Friendly Podcast. Laura Broxson has been deeply involved in Ireland's animal rights movement for over two decades. In 2007, they founded NARA, the National Animal Rights Association. This is a voluntary vegan animal rights group, working towards a world where animals are free from use, abuse and exploitation. To this end, they organise campaigns and spread awareness through protests, demonstrations and information stalls, as well as online activities. The members are united by a shared moral baseline on animal rights, of course, but also on issues like anti-racism, anti-sexism and anti-oppression, and they often collaborate with other social justice movements. In 2019, they successfully brought about a ban on fur farming in Ireland. They used a multifaceted strategy, which involved undercover investigations, working with politicians to bring about legislative change, as well as engaging with the public at large and mobilising a groundswell of support. They are now applying the strategy to other campaigns, like the banning of blood sports, such as fox hunting and hare-coursing, as well as seeking to put an end to Ireland's pig industry. They are also active in promoting a transition to plant-based agriculture by offering animal farmers a practical path out of the industry. We covered many of these topics in a really fascinating conversation, which I hope you will enjoy as much as I did.

HOST: So yeah, I guess, is there anything you want to ask me, or you're comfortable with the whole…?

LAURA: I'm comfortable, yeah, yeah.

HOST: Yeah, you sound fairly comfortable in interviews. You're very articulate, and I mean, you know what you're talking about, so that helps a lot.

LAURA: And at this point, I'm pretty chill as well, you know what I mean? Like, because I've been like, you know, activist-ing since I was 14. So like, it's just conversations, you know, I'm no problem, you know, so. Absolutely, yeah.

HOST: That's what I love. And that really comes across. This is what I love, because I'm not so chill, and I get nervous, but then I can just edit all that stuff out, which is excellent. Okay, so the first thing I guess we will do is talk about what is NARA? What is NARA, and what do you do?

LAURA: Okay, we're the National Animal Rights Association, and we formed in 2007. And we're an animal rights organization based in Dublin, though we do travel all around the country. And we're a consistently anti-oppression organization, which means that we advocate for human rights issues as well. Even though animal rights is our focus, we always take part in any sort of major human rights campaign that has been going on in Ireland. We started off, I suppose, primarily as an anti-fur organization, and then sort of branched out from there to try and encompass a little bit of every issue. But we try our best to use a multitude of tactics for everything we do. So protests, leafleting, info tables, outreach events, stalls at book fairs and things like that. So it's a multi-angled approach, political lobbying, and we just try and pick targets and achieve that goal. So it can be a lengthy process, but we're a non-hierarchical organization. We all do this for free. We volunteer, and we have so many plans for the future. And we hope that more people will join us and get on board with that too.

HOST: That's something I was interested in, this non-hierarchical structure. So you have a number of members and you all kind of decide together. Is that what that means?

LAURA: Yeah, absolutely. So I set up the organization in 2007, but I strongly believe in non-hierarchical systems. So it's like there is no boss. We have a core team, we have a WhatsApp group, and we discuss things that are coming up. We discuss what we'd like to do and ideas and stuff like that. And if someone has a strong opinion against something, we'll take that on board and come to sort of a compromise on things. But we all get on, we're all really good friends. We all, in general, are on the same page about everything. But everything is a team effort, and everyone brings different kinds of skill sets. Like for example, I'm really terrible at graphic design. So that's something I cannot do. I'm not as technologically savvy with, say, social media. So I don't run our TikTok page, I'm not even on TikTok. So there's various skill sets that people have. So collectively, we all bring everything to the table. And everyone's different skill sets are valued and appreciated and important to help us go forward with campaigns.

HOST: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like anybody can come up with any idea, or and it's open to disagreement that, you know, people can make points and say…

LAURA: Absolutely.

HOST: Yeah, which does actually bring a lot more to the table than one boss saying, you guys all have to do this. Yeah, those ideas can come out of left field. So I really wanted to talk, I was so interested to learn about your kind of template for campaigns, because it involves, and I know this came out of your fur farming campaign, but it involves an awful lot of kind of face to face outreach and on the streets and leafleting. And those seem like kind of old-fashioned ideas. But for you guys, it really seems to work.

LAURA: Yeah, I mean, like we try to employ a multitude of different tactics. So like we do do social media campaigns, we do do like, you know, if there's areas we are too far for us to go to, we'll do paid leaflet drops and stuff with postal systems and stuff like that. So we try and incorporate everything. But like, for us, we do like the on the ground, old school, face to face sort of outreach. And, you know, those tactics are still very important, even in this era of social media. And as we might have seen with like marriage equality campaign, and repeal campaign, even the free Palestine movement, it is important to have feet on the ground, and to be making people see and interact and ask questions, because sometimes interfacing on a one-to-one level, and can affect people more than seeing an ad on a social media page. And it gives people the opportunity to ask questions and see your humanity and what you're pushing forward. So I think it's important to adopt a multitude of tactics. And I've always been of the of the opinion that there's no one way to do something. It takes a collective effort and a multi angled approach to achieve a goal. And this is why like, when people want to get involved with campaigns and say, Oh, well, I'm not really into protesting, or I'm not really into the face-to-face leafleting thing. I'm like calling a politician or writing a letter, it's just as important, and still needs to be done. So there's a place for everybody. But I'd never rank one form of activism over the other, you know, it's a collective.

HOST: And I mean, the whole thing with this theory of change, is that people need to hear ideas from a few different angles. So if you're covering, you know, they see it on social media, and then they go into the library, and they see a poster, and they're like, Oh, yeah, I saw about that. And one thing that I kind of thought of, was that…so I'm in on the weekends, I'm totally immersed in animal stuff and social media, and I'm all I'm like, wow, there's so much happening with animals. And then during the week, I have my day job and I'm talking to lots of different people, and none of them are thinking about animals at all. So like, I think for you to be out with do you get that do you sometimes feel being outside takes you out of that echo chamber? And you're actually dealing with the public more?

LAURA: Yes, definitely. Because sometimes I feel like my social media that I have, it's all other vegans, right, and all other lefties and activists and stuff. So it's like a perfect little lefty bubble, I have myself in. And so then when I am out doing outreach, or traveling the country, I'm expecting people to be maybe a little bit more abrasive or combative in what we're putting across. But I have to say, like, when we're traveling the country, everyone is very reasonable, it would be very rare that we'd have sort of a negative confrontation or anything combative. And even when we started doing the pig farm investigations, and doing outreach on that, I was expecting there to be a lot of pushback on that, because these are, you know, quote, unquote, food animals. And so I have to say, like experience so far, everyone has been pretty open and receptive. And that kind of shows me that Ireland is much more far ahead than, say, the politicians or the government would have us. But, you know, when it came to, say, the fox hunting campaign, or even hare-coursing, everywhere we go, people are like, Oh, my God, I can't believe this still exists. And oh, my God, I can't believe this happens in my town or my county or this, the other. And we can be going into the depths of like, hunting areas. And people are still saying, Oh, no, we don't want this in our area. Yeah, you know. And so, you know, when you go outside your echo chamber of social media, the average person is still quite on board, even if they're not vegan, even if they're not animals rights activists, a lot of people will look at these photos we have in our leaflets, and hear what we have to say and agree that it's terrible. So I mean, I think there's great hope with more progressive change for Ireland, because wherever we go, people are fairly on board anyway, you know, which is great to see. And it's great to have that validation. And that hope in humanity that it's not just a little minority of vegans who think this way. When people see what's happening to pigs in Ireland, they do think it's abhorrent, and they do think it should be stopped, you know, so great.

HOST: That's a great segue, because I want to talk about your pig farming campaign. Now, you have a number of campaigns. So we'll cover a little bit on each. The pig farming one, that's fairly ambitious. That's interesting. So do you want to tell us about that?

LAURA: Yeah, well, I suppose like, you know, as I said, we started as a kind of an anti-fur organisation. And when we were lucky enough to have a successful campaign with banning fur farming, and you know, even before that, we got so many shops and boutiques and department stores to agree to fur free policies, we kind of have mostly tackled the fur issue. We moved on to blood sports then. And, you know, we have a couple of like bills in the offing and stuff. But we wanted to branch out and do a little bit more. And it occurred to us that there has never really been any footage of farms in Ireland, you know, everything that we would base our data on or posters or leaflets would be footage taken in the UK or rest of Europe or whatever. And so we said, like, we want to start exposing this and seeing what happens. And of course, that would also involve a lot of research. And it transpired that there's only around 250 or so pig farms in the country, right? Now in that 250, about 3 million pigs are killed every single year. So it's a lot for a small amount of farms. But comparatively, there are like 10s of thousands of sheep farms or 10s of thousands of cow, you know, like beef and dairy farms. So it seemed like, wow, this is so small. And they seem to be naturally in decline. Anyway, this seems like it could be a good target to go for next. And the more we looked into it, the more obviously horrific than even we realised, you know, it was initially that it is. And when we went in to the farms and started taking the footage and seeing how grotesque and horrific and horrible it was, it became very, like, obvious to us anyway, that like, this isn't just some long off in the distance dream that if people could actually see how horrible it is, I think the majority of people would want to do something about it too. So we took the footage, we did the investigations, we put out some videos. And we sent all the unedited original footage to the Department of Agriculture. They say they're conducting their own investigations. They're not really doing anything, to be honest. But we've had a lot of interest in this. And we've had surprisingly zero interaction from the Irish Farmers Association. And I was expecting there to be some opposition. I was expecting them to try and sue us or something like that. I was expecting some radio debates. And, you know, especially after our first investigation, we had a lot of radio coverage. And one time in particular, a radio station had called me and said that the IFA were going to be on to debate with me. And I was like, cool, let's go. And then I went on the show, they said that they actually declined to join the debate and issued a statement instead. So even the pig farmers themselves, even their reps and the Irish Farmers Association won't actually defend the footage we put out there. They don't know what to say to us. So I think that's very telling. And then, you know, couple that with the positive interactions we've had with the general public. Like, nobody can excuse this. Absolutely nobody can excuse this. So for us, you know, we're in what I'd call phase one at the moment, which is exposing it and showing what it's like. Then we have to really start pushing for change. And there has been a bill put forward by Paul Murphy and Ruth Coppinger, which seeks to ban the worst practices of pig farming, like sow stalls and farming crates, teeth clipping, tail docking and all that. And I see that as a political foot in the door to their decline. And ever since we released the footage, the Department of Agriculture has been scrambling to try and incentivise farmers to make bigger enclosures or to do better, whatever. Now, there's not a lot of uptake on this. And obviously, we don't want to increase welfare, we want them all gone. But it has had a bit of an effect because there's reaction to it even politically. So for me, as we escalate with this, the plan is to get county councils on board, object to future planning of future pig farms or expansions of pig farms. And I see them naturally declining anyway, and we just need to give them a firm kick out the door. And that will take, obviously, you know, years to achieve this. But you know, this is a part of it. This is a step and we would like to incorporate other issues. So we started exposing turkey farms. And at the end of last year as well, we're going to keep going forward with this. And, you know, people would say, well, maybe is this like an impossibility and Ireland's never going to be a completely vegan country. We always say we aim high. We aim high. And there's nothing that can't be achieved if you put your mind to it. And I think saying that Ireland could never be a vegan country is an insult to the average person who lives here. You know, most people have a heart. Most people have humanity. Most people care.

And if given the information, the opportunities and the alternatives, I think anything's possible. We just have to try and help be a catalyst of change.

HOST: And that is one thing that you present because I didn't realize, well, I probably did know that a lot of the pig farms aren't financially viable. They're held up by subsidies. And then you talked about alternative farming and James O'Donovan, he has a report. If you just want to talk about that for a bit.

LAURA: Yeah, James O'Donovan, I recommend everybody to check his report out. It's a transition to vegan agriculture and it's available on the Nature Rising website. It's about like 94 pages. And he updates the information like every year as well. And he's very open to doing Zoom talks and presentations. And, you know, he not only proves how Ireland could transition to a vegan agricultural system, but he proves how it would be more financially viable for the farmers.

HOST: Right.

LAURA: So we just have to sort of package this in the right way so that we can be presenting it to the IFA, Department of Agriculture, individual farmers and help them transition. And James is an absolute genius on this issue. And he very kindly gave us permission to print his document, to use his document and use facts from his document. He's given presentations to county councillors before. He's talked to politicians. He's always available to help and give the information. So he is a huge asset to the animal rights cause and, you know, for any sort of environmental activism, too, because it all ties in. But it's a heavy read, you know, over 90 pages. But I recommend just people check it out. And especially farmers need to be checking it out and looking at it, because, you know, I think like on the pig farms, they are so horrific. Even if you take away the animal cruelty issues, the smell, you know, the dirt, the filth, the everything, it's a horrific environment to be in animal wise or not. And I think if anyone could wake up and choose a different direction, I think they would. It just has to be presented to them in the right way. And I think James is going to be the perfect avenue for that because he has the science. I don't have the science, you know, I don't come from a scientific background. And I am not great at putting research and data together, you know, trolling through hundreds of pages of reports and things. He's a genius. And he has it packaged perfectly. And I just think we need to work on utilizing it a bit more. And with his permission, we are at the moment trying to condense his reports to make it a bit of an easier read for people. And then we plan on printing that and presenting it for this legitimate proposals for change. So, you know, we come at things from every angle, as I said. I'm full of vegan lefty activist rage about what happens to animals. But I also know that I need to use a bit of a passive approach, you know, to encourage farmers to switch. So this is where James and other people come in and together there, hopefully we will affect change. But definitely everybody check him out. He's brilliant. The report's excellent.

HOST: Yes, I started reading it. I will read more, but I just got the idea and I was like, oh, my God. And just the whole idea of presenting climate resilient kind of, you know, and this is something farmers are always like; there's no money in it. It's really hard work. It's awful. And you're like, hey, here's an alternative. Maybe.

LAURA: Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

HOST: The video, it was it was really the squalor and the dirt and you can just imagine the smell. And I think it was Dr Alice Brough, she’s a pig expert and she was horrified as well. Big admirer of hers and even she was going, this is just revolting. So…

LAURA: Yeah, no, she's amazing.

HOST (Voiceover): Dr. Alice Brough is a pig veterinarian who worked for many years in the animal farming industry until she became so horrified by the cruelty and brutality that she witnessed on a regular basis that she left the industry to become a whistleblower, a campaigner and an activist for the animals. She is a well-known speaker and her veterinary expertise is invaluable for helping with NARA's campaign.

LAURA: And she's our go to on anything in terms of like their welfare and legalities and stuff like that. So she's absolutely brilliant. And, you know, every time we do an investigation, we bring the footage to her, we fact check with her, and she's good enough to come over to Ireland every time we have a press conference to be able to speak on it, you know, because like I can look at the footage and look at the video and say it's cruel, it's terrible, it shouldn't happen, should be banned. But people don't take that seriously because I'm not a vet, right? Whereas when she explains that it's cruel, it's horrible, it should be banned, people take it more seriously. And there's little things that maybe I would say is objectively cruel, but then go into why it's cruel, how it hurts, what it means for the pig, etc, etc. So she's a wonderful asset to have in the animal rights movement. She always volunteers her time as well, and we would be lost without her in our work.

HOST: That's amazing. I mean, it definitely does add legitimacy and kind of authority to what you're saying. It's not just me, the experts saying it too. Yeah. What about people that would say, oh, but there's a demand for pig meat, and somehow we have to supply that?

LAURA: So what would happen to that if we closed down all the pig farms? Well, what I would imagine what would initially happen is that it would still be imported, right? On a realistic basis, it would still be imported. But I think when people go into a supermarket and they go down these aisles, they're seeing something in a package, right? They're not necessarily seeing the pain, the fear, the suffering. Even though people know that that's a pig, and that's part of a pig, or any animal, they're not really connecting the dots, and they're a little bit desensitized to it. So if you've grown up your whole life going to a supermarket buying these products, you're not necessarily attaching an emotion to it, and you're not necessarily connecting the dots of what happened, but it's out of habit. So part of the change is going to be helping people form new habits, giving people alternatives. And I would see how this would naturally play out would be the pig farms are going to slowly probably decline, slowly transition to something else. Then maybe initially, there'll be a bigger reliance on imports. But then from a self-sustainability point of view, that's not great either. And I think as we become more climate-friendly and self-sufficient as a country, we're going to be relying less on imports. And then if these alternatives that we're putting forward become more commonplace in people's households, I think we're going to see a natural shift. Like when I went vegan many years ago, it wasn't the norm to be buying oat milk or soy milk or whatever. And now when I'm in the supermarket, I can see people loading up their trolleys, and it wouldn't be all vegan stuff, but they'd be buying oat milk instead of dairy. And it's just become normalized, right? So if we can do that with alternative milks, then we can package different types of proteins in a different way and form that habit. And that's how I would see it going over time.

HOST: Because you're vegan now, you went vegan very young. And like the difference now we'll say 10 years ago and now must be incredible for you.

LAURA: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like I went vegan when I was 13, and I'm almost 37 now. And, you know, the highlight of the shop was like Linda McCartney sausages.

That was like, the big cool thing, right? And I don't know if you remember SOS-MIX, where you have to make up the stuff yourself. It was like, it was like TVP that you would hold together.

HOST: Oh yeah.

LAURA: And that was that was it. And then the soy milk and the oat milk that was available back then was very watery and gritty and grainy. And, you know, it certainly didn't mix well in tea or coffee or anything like that. And now I can go anywhere in the country and they have vegan options on menus. I can go in any supermarket in anywhere in the country. And there's soy milk and there's tofu and there's this other like, it's so accessible, so easy. And especially like in Dublin, I mean, like we had we can I can go get vegan donuts anytime I want. Like it's incredible. And that would have been unthinkable to me that a vegan donut would exist, you know, 20 years ago. So it's a huge change in a relatively short amount of time. So I think we're only going to continue to escalate. And for such a small agricultural country, I think we're doing pretty good at making veganism very accessible.

HOST: Yeah. And it's what you said, like that normalizing. And also like vegan food is I find it cheap. You can buy tofu and experiment with like try a tofu scramble and, you know, mess around with different stuff. I find just fine. So I'm vegan about six years now. So I came in when there's all this stuff everywhere. It's like, oh, wow, this is easy. Okay, let's see. Oh, yeah. If you could just go through your kind of template for campaigns, which you learned from the hare-coursing, and you kind of have refined this step-by-step process.

LAURA: So basically, like, I suppose the where the template originally came from was the fur-farming campaign. And we just kind of copied and pasted that template forever. So like, I have been working to ban for farming since I was 16. So it's been a long time and a big journey and a lot of trial and error and stuff like that. But I found that what was the catalyst for change with that one is getting the footage. So we just randomly were able to get footage inside of a mink farm up in Donegal, because I talked my way in, I made a ruse and just talked my way. And it was really it was an unusual, bizarre thing to happen. But when we got that footage, and we put it out online, it was the most recent up to date footage of inside a fur farm in Ireland, right. And then the socialist party, it was Ruth Coppinger saw it. And we had already kind of known her from joining campaigns and things like that human campaigns. And they her office contacted us to say, do we want to have a meeting and have a chat about putting a bill together to ban on fur-farming? And we were like, yeah, amazing, happy days. So then when we got this, this bill in place, we had political footing and political weight. And when we went around the country, then we had protests at the fur farms, we did info stalls and outreach and letterboxing, every county in the country, every major town, city, etc. And we distributed at least around 150,000 leaflets around the country. And at that point, everywhere we went, everyone knew about the campaign and what was going on. And it became very popular. And apart from the using the video online, and doing the outreach, we were getting people to lobby politicians. And at one point, Sinn Féin's office contacted me to ask me to make the email stop that they were going to support Ruth Coppinger's bill to ban fur farming. And they were being bombarded with emails. And I'm like, I can't control the public. I don't, you know, like, whatever. But that gave that gave us the confirmation that people were really making the effort to contact their politicians. So then when it came down to, like a couple of days before the second stage vote, Fine Gael, which was the leading party in charge in government at the time, decided that they were just going to outright ban fur farming, it didn't need to come to a vote. That was the amount of pressure it got. Now, they did make out that like, it was kind of their idea all along and whatever. So like, look, it was Ruth Coppinger's bill. And that's, that's the end of story. It was her bill. And it wasn't theirs. But it got the job done. And so from that, we realized that having a political bill gives you political weight. And when you're out lobbying with people, and you're able to say that there is a bill in government proposing this, it gives a level of importance to us. When you tell people you can help this bill win by contacting your politician, it gives them legitimate power to be a part of this change. So for us, then the template is try and get footage, get the footage out there, and get the leaflets and all that made, start talking to the public, start doing the outreach, start political lobbying, and then hopefully you get the win. And we have this, you know, commitment level that if it doesn't go right the first time, we do it again. And we keep going, you know. But I just think that a multi-angled approach is essential. You know, like if we were just relying on a video, it wouldn't have pressured the politicians. If we were just relying on outreach and didn't have a video, it wouldn't be out there. You know, so it needed everything to make it happen. And so that's what we're trying to emulate with everything else.

HOST: It's absolutely brilliant. And like it is coming from all angles. And I was reading Change by Damon Centola, and it's a book about, you know, changing the world and stuff. And that makes me laugh because that only came out a few years ago. And you've obviously been doing exactly what he said for the last 20 years. He said that he said that people are not so much influenced by big, important people as you would think. They're influenced by their friends and the local kind of groups and stuff. So if this outreach is or even leaflet drops, you know, a personal approach.

LAURA: Absolutely.

HOST: So when you ask people to lobby their politicians, what are you asking for, emails just to say, hey, look at this bill?

LAURA: Yeah, it can be as detailed or as short as people want. And you know, we provide templates for people as well to make it just easy, like copy, paste, send. And we work a lot with Uplift Ireland, and they're great at putting templates together. And it's just like, click a button and you send it. And so it can be as simple as like, say, for like the fur-farming bill, we were telling people it can be as simple as like, hi, my name is so and so I live in your constituency, and I'm asking you to support Ruth Coppinger’s Bill to ban fur-farming the end, it can be as simple as that. But if you want to go into, it's cruel, it's archaic, you know, the animals suffer, you know, you can go into as much or as little detail as you want. But basically, you're just trying to bombard that politician with do the right thing, do the right thing, do the right thing, do the right thing. You can also make calls, not everyone's comfortable. But you know, jamming up phone lines is great. And asking to you know, if you're if you have a local politician, it is within your rights to ask them to meet you about an important issue. So we encourage people to ask to book in a slot to meet with your local TD to talk about the issue. And that's what I did. And when the fur farming bill was put forward, I asked to meet with my local politicians. And they have to sit down with me for 15 minutes and listen to me talk about this. And now thankfully, they were receptive. And even one of the government parties that you know, were initially not supporting the bill, he took it on board, took the information and kept in touch with me what he was doing. So I mean, every avenue is great. I'm not shy about calling someone on the phone or meeting them face to face. But that's not for everybody. But if you're if you're jamming up their inbox, that's great, too. That's really good, really clear ways to approach.

HOST: And so I want to move on to hare-coursing. This is another one that I kind of thought I knew what hare-coursing was, I actually thought that the hare was taken was used for a couple of races, and then was gone back out. And it all happened within a week. I was just shocked to find out what really happens. So do you want to explain to us about that?

LAURA: Yeah, hare-coursing is absolutely horrific. And we're one of only two countries in Europe that still, you know, has it legalized. So it's us in Portugal are left and it's not even a big thing in Portugal. It's a big thing here. So what happens is they wild catch these hares, and they can catch anywhere from like maybe 2500-5000 hares a year. And because of all the different coursing clubs around the country. So what they will do is they will trap them, they will train them for weeks. So what they do is to try and train them to run down a track. So they're being kept and like raced independently for four weeks. Then as it gets into a more competitive coursing season, they have these trials and these matches. So the goal is, is that the greyhound is muzzled, but it doesn't make that much of a difference. Because obviously, the hare is terrified, they're running for their life, they don't know that the greyhound is muzzled. And the dogs can still break their backs, they can still kill them, they can still, you know, tear them apart, like it's still horrific. And of course, the hares can die of heart attacks and things afterwards as well. But basically, the goal is, is that whichever dog makes the hare change direction first wins. That's the rules. And they're basically running down a long field. And then there's a cover and escape hatch where the hare is trained to go through. But dogs are fast, just as fast as these hares. And these hares are terrorized running back forth, back forth. So anyway, they will have this match, whatever dog will win will win. And then the hare is brought out the next day or whatever for the next match. And we have anecdotal evidence that because of a lack of hares in the country, coursing clubs are swapping hares back and forth, right? So you could trap a hare in one area, race it in one area, then give it to another club. And then when they're supposed to release the back into the wild, the hare is gonna be released into an area that they don't know; that this is all anecdotal. Yeah. And but we believe it very much to be true. And a couple of coursing clubs have been sanctioned by the National Parks and Wildlife Services for not releasing the hares properly, or releasing them without supervision, meaning they're being released in the wrong place. And, you know, there's a whole lot of dodgy stuff going on there. And but it is incredibly cruel. And a point that Jennifer Whitmore, TDC's and Social Democrat TD brought up recently is that the law is you cannot course a pregnant hare, right? But how are they checking if the hare is pregnant or not? They're not. Right? They're absolutely not. Yeah. And they're probably not even sexing the hares. Right? So how did they know? You know, they don't. And if the law is you cannot course a pregnant hare, then technically, every hare caught should get a pregnancy test of some description, like a little ultrasound or check the urine or whatever, right? They're not doing that. It’s not happening. And then when hares are released, they're saying, okay, they were released X amount that were still alive after the coursing event, whatever. How do you know that hare isn't going to drop dead the next day? You don't. Like any animal who's under extreme stress and fear and released into areas that they're unfamiliar with. What's going to happen? They're in shock. Right. We don't know. They don't know if a paw of a greyhound has whacked an internal organ hard enough that they're going to bleed out internally over the next couple of days. They don't know.

HOST: Right.

LAURA: So it's incredibly cruel, incredibly archaic. And again, the goal is just money. It's all gambling. You know, they put bets on what dog is going to get to the hare first. And it's something that should have no place in Ireland in 2026. And I don't know why politicians make such excuses for this when the majority of the country want all blood sports bans. There's been several independent polls and surveys conducted, and that's in rural and urban areas. And each time between 70 and 80 percent of the general public want all of a ban, fox hunting and hare coursing. They want it all gone. So it's only the politicians holding us holding us back. But hare coursing is just it's incredibly cruel. And hares are one of our national animals. The Irish hare is the only type of species in Europe where a unique particular hare species. And we don't have European hares. It's a particular brand of hares that we have here that are nowhere else. And so they should be protected. And under wildlife laws, they are protected with an exemption for coursing. So if you or I were to like kick a hare or something, we'd be prosecuted. Right. Whereas if we said, oh, no, we only did that because we want to course the hare, then it would be OK. And that makes no sense.

HOST: I was thinking about I did a wildlife rescue course and they were saying, you know, when you're working with animals that you to be so careful and not handle them and not stress them, because when you let them out, they'll have capture myopathy. You know, they can have a heart attack and from the fright. And that might be, you know, a one day or a one week. But to think that you could take hare, do all that stuff to them and then release them and be like, I think they're fine, is just nonsensical.

LAURA: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's outrageous. It's outrageous. It's outrageous from a cruelty perspective and it's outrageous in terms of it just literally does not make sense. Like from a factual perspective, it does not make sense whatsoever.

HOST: Yeah, it's indefensible. There's no logic to it. You just think about your own perspective if you were captured and made to do all this and then sent home and be like, well, I think you're fine. It's just nonsense.

LAURA: Yeah, it wouldn't happen. It really wouldn't happen.

HOST: So that's, that's interesting. And I mean, yeah, I think exactly what you say. Once people really realize what's going on, because for some reason I had this idea that it was, you know, I knew it was bad with the dogs and stuff, but I was like, it's one day, it's one week, but like, it's continuous. It's horrible. It's swapping and just horrible. Yeah. Information is great. It is. So that actually leads me on to school outreach. You guys do school outreach, you do talks, and you were saying that animal, what is it, animal rights is on the school curriculum, on some school curriculums.

LAURA: Yeah. I mean, like it tends to sort of upgrade every couple of years, to be honest, you know. But like whenever we have done school talks before or have been even asked to do a little kind of Zoom presentations for schools or kids doing projects, a lot of, a lot of secondary school kids would contact us with say questionnaires for a project that their class is doing or that they're doing or whatever. And it just seems to be part of the curriculum now. Like every year we will get an influx of questions from secondary school kids saying that they're doing a project on puppy farms or on hunting or on fur or whatever. And they're the kind of class rep to go ask somebody the questions and stuff. So it just seems to be much more widespread. Now, I don't think it would be maybe on the level we're at in terms of, you know, veganism and, you know, acknowledging like sentience and equal rights and stuff like that. But I would call it maybe very much high welfare sort of views on animals. And I think there's maybe a newfound importance of instilling welfare and care to animals and an acknowledgement that animals, you know, feel and think, and we should treat them nicely and things like that. But sometimes I'd be contacted and it would be not just kind of what I'd call like more kind of fluffy software issues like puppy farming or whatever or circuses. It would be wanting to ask questions on animal agriculture or fishing or horse racing or things that are a little bit more controversial or Dublin Zoo or something like that, you know. So I think there has been leaps and bounds made within Ireland in that way, which is great to see, because when I started campaigning like years ago, it definitely would not have been something that would have been hugely on the agenda. But I also think that would be the same for human rights stuff as well. I don't think there would have been the same level of interest for human issues as there is now, too. So I think it's an all-encompassing sort of progression in the country. And it's great to see.

HOST: Really, really great. It's brilliant to see. That's a good introduction to when you started. And so I definitely don't want to finish this without talking about Laura and how you kind of started and your journey, because it is kind of interesting, I think. So yes, tell us about your upbringing and all the animals. I was so jealous. I was like, oh, wow, animals everywhere.

LAURA: Yeah, I mean, like I was very lucky and privileged, like where I grew up and the environment I grew up in. So my parents were always big animal lovers. And we lived in North County Dublin at the time. We had 17 acres. And my parents were always just finding animals and rescuing animals and stuff. So surrounded by animals the whole time, basically, which was fantastic. And we had chickens and ducks. And we had pigs, sheep, donkeys, horses, goats, dogs, cats, everything. And so it was amazing. And I love animals so much. And I always have, ever since I was a kid. And my parents, huge animal lovers, and my parents are really kind and really gentle people and stuff. So it was just natural. If an animal was there, and they found it, of course, they take it and look after it. But it kind of dawned on me when I was about 12, that like, we spend all this time caring for all these animals. And then we'll come in and have dinner and eat a dead animal. And it was around Christmas time. And I saw like the turkey on the table and the ham on the table. And it just didn't sit well with me. And I couldn't eat it. And I was just I was just really feeling like the dots connected for me and hit me hard, basically. But I kind of thought that maybe my parents because I was only 12, I thought that might object to me being a vegetarian. And because it was still quite out there at that time, it wasn't normalized, you know. So I had this like little 12 year old speech prepared about I was going to do it and they couldn't stop me. And I was getting ready to like really put my case across, you know, and, you know, be combative about it. And then when I said it, my parents kind of looked at each other and they're like, Oh, wow, that's a really great idea. And we were kind of talking about it too. And let's all do it together, you know, and then I was like, Wait, what?

HOST: Yeah, what about my speech?

LAURA: What about my speech? Exactly. So from that point onwards, like the three of us went to vegetarian. And I didn't even realize about veganism at that point, you know. And it was about a year later, my mom was reading a book. And the book wasn't even about specifically veganism. But it touched on veganism. And it touched on, like, you know, not using something from anybody without their permission and the cruelty of dairy and things like that. So she brought it to my attention then. And then she was like, Well, should we try this and whatever? And like, we're like, Yeah, yeah. And so we went vegan and together. And then about a year later, my dad went vegan. And then my brother went straight from meat eating to vegan and stuff. So like, our nuclear family was all vegan from that point. But we didn't know any other vegans. We weren't immersed in any other like, you know, vegan, like, there's so many vegan groups now. And you know, the Vegan Society and things and there's meetup groups and potlucks and all that there was none of that. So we had to kind of figure it out ourselves, which was difficult. And I feel very lucky that like, as a kid, my mom and dad were figuring this out and you know, doing it. So like, I didn't have to. But it was about then maybe a year later, I kind of felt that, like me being vegan wasn't enough. I wanted to make everybody vegan, you know, and it was back in the old dial up internet days that people can remember that. And I was looking up, you know, different animal rights organizations and things that were happening in Dublin and Ireland and whatever. And it just sort of like, grew from there, you know, but like, if it wasn't for my parents, inherent love of animals, and growing up on an animal sanctuary, and my parents being very open and progressive to these kind of things, I don't think I would have gone vegetarian or vegan as quickly. But I was given the space, and to be sort of autonomous in my thinking, and explore these things, without having negative reactions from my parents and stuff. So I was very fortunate that way. And it just seemed like this was always going to be an actual conclusion. But for me, it was very easy. And at like 12, 13, my mom still made all my meals, you know, I didn't have to think about it, you know, it was very, very easy, you know.

HOST: So you spent, we'll say kind of five years then working with different groups before you actually established NARA. And there was one thing you kind of, you mentioned PETA, and you were like, what, what's wrong with PETA? Or what, what's your objection?

LAURA: Oh, pull up a chair.

HOST (Laughing): Okay.

LAURA: So PETA was initially the first organisation that I kind of heard of, because right, they're the big one, they're big in America and whatever. And at the time, they had like a youth group, you know, so like, I joined the youth group, I was like, you know, probably one of the few like youth activists in Ireland, and I used to buy all their leaflets and buy their stickers, and I'd go around leafleting and stuff like that. So like, they were definitely my gateway organisation, if you will. But PETA are like, not a human rights advocate sort of organisation as well. So they have done campaigns that body shame people, they have done sexist campaigns, they've done racist campaigns, they target people to make their point about animals, and they can objectify people to make their point about animals. And so the more I kind of learned about how they did what they did, the more I was kind of like, this isn't right. And this, this isn't nice. And this is not how I want to go about it. And I was fortunate enough that like, you know, we are adjacent to the UK. And the UK would to me would be like the epicentre of animal rights campaigns in general. And when I started going over to the UK to I suppose, hone in my craft and activism, the baseline there was always a lefty, anti fascist, inclusive sort of baseline, that no one would dream of doing anything negative to a person to make a point about an animal rights issue. So it was instilled in me kind of from that and seeing that as well, that you can be a kick ass animal rights activist, but you don't need to drag down humans, you're doing stuff, you know. So PETA then, like, as I found out more over the years, they make absolute millions, they're very profit driven, and they tend to, they have like a rescue centre, but they euthanise animals rather than keep them in kennels and try and find homes for them. So it's very utilitarian sort of approach, which I don't agree with either. And if you're an animal rights organisation, and you have millions, why not pump that into rehoming animals? Why are you killing them? So there's a whole host of things wrong with PETA. And I feel like, you know, if you're trying to elevate a particular cause, you don't need to punch down a different one, you know. So I was just very lucky that in the UK, the activist groups I learned from and got involved with, they were always on the same page about that, always. And they introduced me to more human rights issues, because as a quite a privileged 13, 14 year old, I kind of felt, oh, human rights were sorted, let's focus on the animals. And then it was the more I kind of learned, I was like, oh, my God, like, there's so much that needs to be done for humans, too. And so it's a big learning experience. But that's, you know, that's why NARA, our baseline is consistently anti-oppression. You know, we have to care about everyone and everything, and not have a hierarchical system of suffering.

HOST: Yeah. And that really works, because I mean, I've always been into animals, but I only went vegan like that six years ago. But I never joined PETA. And I didn't know why, but I was like, they just annoy me. I don't know why, but I just do not want to be, you know, and every so often, I'd see their campaign and stuff, and I'd be like, oh, and I'm like, no, I'm not joining that. But I didn't know why. But it was that, it's that uncomfortable, exactly, squashing down other people, or it's wonderful to be in a group or campaigns that feel like you're elevating everyone, make you feel good, too, about yourself.

LAURA: Absolutely, absolutely. Like, even like, you know, in Ireland, and, you know, we, we joined the marriage equality campaign. And during repeal, we had like weekly vegans for choice outreach and stuff. And we go to every March for Palestine, Black Lives Matter. And, you know, I think it's very important to be good comrades to other organizations. And it's not because we want the credibility or want to be seen or whatever, it's because it's an important thing to do. Yeah, and mutual aid is very important. And helping lift each other up is very important. And then over the years, then we've got that reciprocity back, you know, I mean, like, we've gotten support from other organizations and other like, you know, say, the the Arab Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, or ROSA, the socialist feminist movement, they will share our stuff to to their supporters. And that's because we have mutual respect and admiration over the years. And I know that if we really needed some help on something, or needed to put something out there, I could ask them when I know they do it, you know, and just like when they contact us and ask us to share something or do something, we do it.

HOST: Yeah, it's very supportive, lovely network. Yeah. And I just wanted to talk on vivisection and animal testing. So this is an kind of interesting one, I think maybe I'm not sure people are aware of this. But maybe if you could spend five minutes on that, and just tell us a bit.

LAURA: Of course, of course. So we work with them at Support Animal Free Research Ireland. It's an organization that specifically focuses on animal testing. And it did the founder of that Suzanne, she's an expert in all things animal testing. So she'd know like all the facts way more than I am. But unfortunately, animal testing does take place here in Ireland. So between every year, it sort of changes, but usually it's around 130,000 to 150,000 animals are used and killed in vivisection here every year. And that would be independent laboratories dotted around the country, like say Charles River, for example, over in Mayo. And it can be within every college and university here. So like Trinity College has big testing facilities, so does UCD. And, you know, some of the research would be, like say cancer research, and that would be more and for say, the universities would do things like that, then the independent laboratories like Charles River would be more like toxicity testing, and chemicals, things like that. And then there are other laboratories that do Botox batch testing as well. And we're like the hub of that in Ireland, too. So the species used primarily would be mice and rats, because obviously, they're quite small and can be used easily. But other animals would be like dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, horses, pigs, sheep, and fish, the list goes on. And these experiments are all approved by the HPRA. And when there's a whether it's a lab or university putting forward an idea for an experiment or whatever, they have to rate, like from one to 10, basically how much pain and suffering they think the animal is going to feel. And we've gotten some of these applications, a lot of things are heavily redacted, of course, we don't know all the details. But you know, they can be rating things as an extreme level, an eight or a nine or whatever, of how much suffering that animal is going to experience. But then they will counter with, oh, but it has to be done because we have to check for XYZ, you know. And in 2026, there are a wealth of alternatives available, you know, and these alternatives would not only predict how a drug is going to react in a person, but what type of person, like if you're a diabetic, you might react in a particular way to something than if you're not diabetic, for example, you know. So, I mean, all these alternatives, like, you know, DNA chips and cell culture testing and things in particular, they are much more accurate than animal models. And it just surprises me that we're not willing to transition to that. And, you know, because mice and rats are primarily used, especially for cancer research, they're infused with human carcinomas, right? But they cannot get the same cancers that we do. So, if a cure is found for a cancer in a mouse or a rat, that's not necessarily going to apply to work for a human. So, it doesn't even make, like, valid scientific sense anyway, right? But animal models are easy to use and they're easy to manipulate. And if you're trying to put together, like, reports and thesis and patents and things like that, using animals makes it look like you're doing loads and you're putting that work in, you're getting these papers out. It's not achieving anything, but you're looking really busy. Whereas if they were to actually spend a little bit of money putting in these alternatives, they mightn't get as many papers out, right? But it would be real science and it would be real information and it would be accurate and there would be no suffering going on, you know? So, it's just, it's horrible. Every time I walk by Trinity College, I shudder because of all the tens of thousands of animals they have in there. They have underground networks, the big, like, soccer, rugby pitch in the middle. Under that is a network of animal stables and things like that. So, it's all under there. People are having their lunch on that and animals are kept under there. I hate it so much, you know? And Trinity College could be a nice place, but this is what they're doing in there. And even the dentistry department there used to use beagle dogs. They don't use them at the moment, but they used to. So, Trinity College has been just like a horror chamber for animals and still continues to be. So, and again, like, if more people knew, I think there would be uproar against it. And this is where Support Animal Free Research come in. Great organization. They're doing loads to get the word out there and get the information out there. So, I'd recommend everybody to check them out.

HOST: I love the way you collaborate with experts. It's kind of what you say, like, I'm not an expert in this, but I've spoken to the people who know and they've explained it and I've read about it and stuff. And that's where you get your knowledge.

LAURA: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important, you know, and we would only work with organizations that are on the same page with our values too, you know? And that's really important.But I think if there's organizations that exist and have the information, I think it's to support each other with the work rather than try and one-up each other or take over, you know?

HOST: Yeah. And why would you put in all that work trying to learn and it's already there.

Okay. So, is there anything else that you would like to cover? I've just learned so much in the past week. I mean, I've always followed your work and I was like, I really want to talk to her, but to actually do a little bit of a deep dive, just learned so much. And then I was really excited. I was like, yes, I'm going to talk to her.

LAURA: Thank you so much. I love having a chat about activism and stuff. It's really an absolute pleasure. And the only thing I would just really add is that I'd encourage anybody to do any kind of activism in their own way that they can. And I'm a big advocate for saying, start your own. You don't have to join an organization. You don't have to comply with current methods or current rules, whatever. If you feel passionate about something, just go do it because all it takes is one person to make change. And I think you have to have the belief in yourself and your convictions to go and do that. And so I would always say, you don't have to look to big organizations. You don't have to join organizations to be solo activists, do your own thing, whatever you want, but just do something because every person counts. And whether it's for human rights issues, animal rights issues, environmental issues, it's all so important and it needs every single person to get active and do something.

And that could be writing a letter. It could be writing a letter into a newspaper. It could be consistent with sharing posts on social media. It could be joining a protest. It could be organizing a protest. It can be literally anything, but rippling upon defect is real and you've got to start that ripple. And I think more and more groups are popping up even within Ireland. And I think Ireland is very good with on the street activist change, like the wave of the countrywide support for repeal, for example. Every town, every city, everyone's getting out doing their bit. So when people are inspired here to make change, they stick with it and they do it. And that's what gives me hope. And we're a little island.So to me, a vegan utopia is possible one day.

HOST: Wonderful.

HOST (Voiceover): My thanks again to Laura and all the team at NARA for the amazing and really necessary work that they do. You can find them at naracampaigns.org. N-A-R-A campaigns.org. And be sure to stop and say hello if you ever see them out and about in your locality. Demonstrating. Protesting. Or just educating.

That’s it for now. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you next time.

(Music playing).